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Long time listener, first time I have something to post in the forums. I do really appreciate the show and get a lot out of it. Thanks so much.

I have a conundrum and am looking for any feedback that anybody out there might be able to offer. I've quite literally always wanted to fly. I was finally able to save up the money to get my private pilot's license 11 years ago - when I was 19. After I achieved that I had a hard time finding the money to keep flying as much as I wanted, but I never usually went more than a couple months without picking up an hour here or there.

So here I am, just turned 30, wanting to fly and realizing that it's not likely I'll ever be in a financial position to just fly for fun whenever I want. Sure I can continue picking up 15 hours or so a year, but I Want To FLY! So.... I'm thinking about a career in aviation.

I've got about 185 hours now (22 in the last year), just completed my Instrument written (haven't started training yet), and am looking to figure out the right way to go about becoming a Professional Pilot. I live in the SF Bay Area (Richmond), and have looked at several flight schools and spoken with a couple instructors. I'm also looking into accelerated flight training like Airline Transport Professionals which has a training center in Sacramento - not too far away.

My goals? Well, I realize that I'm a bit starry-eyed right now and need to add a dose of reality (you come in here), but I'm not as excited about driving a bus as I am about driving a taxi. Going to different places, mixing it up a bit. I like the idea of corporate or business aviation and also businesses like DayJet, NetJets, etc. And the fact that there are many new options coming on the market soon with the advent of the VLJs among other things makes me think there may actually be a future in aviation in something other than flying SFO-MDW-IAD-IAH-SFO. I do enjoy teaching, but with little professional experience at that I can't say right now that I see myself as a professional CFI.

My background: I'm 30, married, live in a condo purchased at the wrong time (in other words no serious equity to help with this and not likely to be able to easily relocate), and have a college degree in Geography. My wife is a very supportive woman who likes to fly and help out with cockpit duties but prefers to be a passenger vs. the one on the controls. I'm currently a freelance cartographer and VR photographer (360 panoramic photography) and have been for the last 8 years or so and making enough to get by and live somewhat comfortably.

So first a couple of easy questions with perhaps many different right answers. What's the best way to go about pursuing this dream? Should I go through a program like ATP that will get me my Instrument, Multi, Commercial-Multi and Single, CFI Multi and Single (including CFII) all in one fell swoop - actually a 90-day fell swoop? Or should I look at getting the Instrument, Commercial, and CFI (all single) and work my way from there? If not this accelerated program, what about Part 61 (general flight school) vs Part 141 (approved-syllabus style program)?

No matter which way I go about this, I'll be taking on some hefty loans in order to proceed. I don't exactly have $30-60k lying around in my flight fund. The ATP program runs $58k. A local flight school website estimates that the same set of licenses will run me about $36k at their place. Of course the difference is the structure of the training, aircraft availability, fleet maintenance, proximity to my home, etc, not just the money.

1) Am I being unrealistic or can I actually live as a professional pilot? Is this something that requires undue amounts of luck and some nepotism, or can hard-work actually get me somewhere?

2) Accelerated program, 'private' training to match the accelerated program, or 'private' training just to get me to CFI-single?

3) Financial - as someone going down one of these career paths, would I be likely to actually be able to pay off the training loans that I'll have to take on with money earned from flying? I mean before the bank decides to repossess everything I have including my cat?

Obviously I'm still in the exploratory stages, but I'm very serious about this and want to make a go of it. Once I make the plunge I'll go full tilt, but before that I want to weigh all my options.

Any input would be gratefully received. But just having written this has already been a help to me. Thanks for the forum!

-Landis

Hi Landis, I am in Australia so the options are going to be different but, we are pilots who love flying.
You are 30 years old, at that age I was thinking I was too old to get a professional job flying, I had always wanted to instruct, I began an instructor course at 33 years of age but didn't finish it. I was close to getting the hours up, but I was going overseas for 4 weeks soon. I never quite finished the course by the time I went overseas and I was away 12 weeks (not 4), came back to my business (video rental library) and the business needed attention.
I hardly flew at all after I returned from O/s. There are spaces in my log book that have 5 years of no flying, never lost interest but after 2-3 months you think to yourself: I'd have to go thru all this recurrent training, check rides, it would cost me a fortune, so I just kept putting it off.

Anyway, I'm now 47. 2 years ago I completed my instructor course, had to do it all over again, the briefings, the flying, the school I did it at had a fantastic instructor, but he left mid course, at the time I wasn't sure why. I was left to complete the course with instructors who may have been good pilots, but had no people skills, the whole company was depressing. I was again beginning to think I was chasing a lost dream.

I achieved the instructor rating at the end of 2005 and again hardly flew in 2006. The school was run by a couple of guys who could do with some lessons in PR. They had an odd policy that they would never ask anyone to work for them, I would have to ask them, a relief really as I loved flying but was not going to work in an environment like that!
Late 2006 I get a call from the Instructor who I started the course with in '05. He's opening up a flying school late '06 or early '07 at another airport, he asked me to be an instructor there!

So at 47 years old I am now instructing part time, I have another business that I'm selling, then I'll go full time. Its a breath of fresh air, and I'm loving it. Sure, I'm working with some guys who are younger than my kids who are more experienced than me but it's great. They are all really supportive and I'm not afraid to ask anyone anything. The owner of the business is about my age and there's another instructor a little older than me as well. It's a great environment there. Like it should be.

Have a crack mate! (Ozzy slang) = give it a go!
My only regret is that I didnt have the confidence to pursue this sooner, but that's ok as im there doin-it-now.
Just follow the dream and see where it takes you. Just do it.

Best of luck, cheers

_________________
Fly safe,

David

We have definitely had this question before...and I'm trying to fix the search engine.

However,
First of all, you should email me-and we'll talk details, but this is what you should know to start.
Talk to as many pilots as possible. At all levels, CFI to professional charter/regional. You can do this via internet, but start calling friends of friends. The professional pilots are the ones that can tell you what it is really like out there.
You are fortunate that you live in the Bay Area, as a CFI, our hourly is much higher and if you treat it like a business, you can make a living.
Your next job may not be so good. Don't expect to pay back any $$, and perhaps even have to supplement in order to sustain yourself. That is a question that you will have to take seriously if you are married and have dependants.
141 vs 61...
what matters if you, how you learn, and the CFI you find.
-if you need a structured course, and a schedule, perhaps consider 141
-if you don't, 61 with some discipline, often works better for flexibility
**either, find yourself a good instructor, this is the most important thing

email me if you have more questions, I'm sure you do, I would be happy to answer...
take care,
anais

also check out Podcast #84

David (bobzob) - thanks mate. I really appreciate the encouragement. I do feel that if I don't do it now, I really won't have a chance to later. I'm glad that you were able to make it happen. And darn it, 30's not old!

Anais - Yes, this topic has been brought up before and I've read as much as I could find. I also remembered listening to TFP #84, but I just listened again. It's good advice. I've talked with people at 6 different flight schools so far and met some really good people. But lot's of conflicting advice.

One instructor reminded me of the adage that the only way to make a small fortune in aviation is to start with a large one. He suggested that I find some other way to earn a living and only fly for fun. The thing is I don't necessarily want to make a fortune - but I do need to make a living, eventually.

I also went to ATP yesterday and talked with a couple instructors and students there. It's a different kind of environment than the Part 61 (or small Part 141's) that I'm used to. The instructors are not there as permanent instructors. They are on their way through (4-6 months), building Multi time and they make no bones about it. Is this bad? I'm not sure. Once you get into the "real world" of aviation I'm guessing this is what you are surrounded with - people looking to advance. At least until I get to be head of Google's corporate aviation department or left-seat in a FedEx 777.

As far as the smaller school's Part 61 vs Part 141 I haven't been able to see any real difference when talking with the schools. Part 141 has an 'approved' syllabus, whereas Part 61 hopefully has a syllabus, but it's individually tailored by the instructor. Certain ratings have lower hours required under 141 than 61. You have to do stage checks with other instructors, but I did that with my Private with a Part 61 school just as good practice and to make sure my instructor and I weren't overlooking anything. So at the schools with 4-10 planes that offer both Part 141 and Part 61, I just don't really get it.

My main consideration here now is to figure out the best way to proceed. A program like ATP costs a heck of a lot. But it gives me almost entirely Multi time and experience. And if my goal isn't strictly to be a professional CFI, shouldn't this be what I'm striving for? Especially since I am 30 and not as able to take my time to build up all the ratings and experience?

But you know the biggest thing that has always been an obstacle in my flying (and probably many others) is financial. Loans for education at a school, in my research, are much easier and cheaper to come by than loans for education on your own. Anais, or any other CFIs that read this, what has your experience been with students and financial aid? Does everyone who comes to you have the finances to do this out-of-pocket or are some of them financing their dreams?

If financing were no problem I could find an independent CFI (or two) and get all my ratings in a Twin thereby building my Multi time just as I would with ATP. I figure that paying an instructor and renting a Twin for every hour that ATP gives me would still be about $10-15k cheaper than they are asking. But I don't see a bank loaning me money to go that route. Have you?

BTW Wachovia left a message and said they'd be happy to have my first born and all pets as collateral and that I'm approved (good thing I don't have any kids and my cat probably couldn't care less). Now I've got to call them back and figure out how much they'll be asking me to pay back every month so I can add that on top of the mortgage, property taxes, HOA dues, and a can of tuna here and there and then subtract that from the $1,500 a month I might be able to expect for the first year or two. Fun times!

-Landis