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 Post subject: Logging Time
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:20 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:22 pm
Posts: 4
Hi TFP listeners,

This is my first TFP Forum post (I just found the podcast last week, and have already listened to them all!).

I was reading a comment in the General Aviation Forum about the first time in a tail wheel aircraft. One of the posts from dcfly stated "I got some stick time in a Champ last year. The owner wasn't a CFI, so it wasn't loggable." From that statement I assume he is still a student.

My question to the CFI's out there is what time IS loggable when a student get behind the stick?

Soon after getting my ticket a few years ago my wife took a 'Pinch Hitters' course and got the bug herself. Shortly after that experience she started taking lessons. I eventually got checked out in the Right seat, so she could fly from the left. Her instructor said she could log that as "Total Time". It does not count as PIC or Instruction, but it would count for experience.

It seems to me that dcfly could have logged his taildragger flight as 'Total Time' without having a CFI in the back seat.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:46 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:19 pm
Posts: 104
Location: The Land of IMC, New England
Great question: let me kick off my answer with a question of my own, presented to you: When do you NEED to log time?

The answer is never unless you need to demonstrate that you've acquired the required flight experience for the next certificate or rating that you would like to get, in which case you would log time.

So let's say Dcfly buys a 152 for himself after he gets his private, and he has no desire to get his instrument. He never has to touch his logbook again if he doesn't want to.

Now if 2 years after he got his private he decides he wants to get that instrument rating, he's screwed out of those hours unless they're documented someplace else.

So for the purpose of "Total Time", it's pretty much pointless to log it, and here's the filter:
1. It doesn't count towards a certificate or rating.
2. He's not acting as the PIC because he doesn't hold the necessary logbook endorsement.
3. He's not receiving dual-given for the purpose of obtaining that endorsement.

It's essentially the same as logging the time you spent sitting in Seat 23B on that JetBlue flight from Boston to San Jose as a passenger.

Besides, doesn't it just give you a bad feeling putting hours in your logbook that you know in your heart aren't legit?

Then there's always the possibility that the examiner for your next checkride looks at your 8710, notices the Total Time is greater than the sum of the "PIC" and "Dual Given" columns and starts asking questions. I wouldn't want to have to talk my way through that one...

_________________
Inst: "So how far out so we make our initial call-up?"
Student: "10 miles"
Inst: "OK, let's make that call"
Student: "Airport Traffic, Cessna 172, 3 miles east..."


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:36 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:22 pm
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Thanks for the insight. I especially like the point about when do you NEED to log time. Never! As a diligent logger, thats a bit of trivia I had forgotten over the last few years.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:30 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:37 pm
Posts: 83
Location: Houston, TX
Don't you need log entries to satisfy the recency of experience requirements? I.e. - BFR, IPC, x inst. approaches within x months, x landings within x months, etc?

_________________
-PJ

PPL ASEL as of 8/15/2007

"Flying is a lot like riding a bicycle, it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes!" -Captain Rex Kramer, from the movie "Airplane!"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:38 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:42 pm
Posts: 466
Location: San Francisco, California
Hi Flyforfun, welcome to the forum!

I absolutely agree with Starving here. What is our objective when logging time? It is to demonstrate that we have the experience for a rating, currency, or certificate.
If you feel that your experience during a flight is useful for the above, or experience adding to your skills in order to act as PIC...then log it. If it's a pleasure flight, or just exposure to another environment-inevitably as a pilot/student you are going to pick up some information-but is it really adding to your abilities as a hopeful PIC? If you sincerely think it is and you have future plans, log it. But do so concientiously.
Multi-time hopefuls often get a little overzealous with logging because costs are so high. Safety pilot with another. Both technically log it, but as the safety pilot does it really add to his/her ability to fly/act as PIC of a multi-engine?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 8:12 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:19 pm
Posts: 104
Location: The Land of IMC, New England
t0r0nad0 wrote:
Don't you need log entries to satisfy the recency of experience requirements? I.e. - BFR, IPC, x inst. approaches within x months, x landings within x months, etc?


The answer to this question is you DO if you intend to exercise the privileges of a certificate or rating that require currency or recent experience.

Now for a BFR, (which, as a bit of trivia, isn't called a BFR anymore. It's just called a "Flight Review" which occurs every 24 calendar months. Part 61.56) there is NO time requirement. If a pilot walks in having not flown in 5 years and asks for a flight review, then we go ahead and do one. Now HIS flight review is going to be a LOT different than someone I see flying at the airport every week, as the purpose is to make sure the pilot can conduct a safe flight.
The FAA and the AOPA have all published articles about what type of information should be discussed during a flight review, but in the end it just boils down to the instructor. A minimum of one hour of ground and one hour of flight time and the signoff is legal.

As for an IPC, that too is just a demonstration of proficiency. Looking at a logbook just gives a CFI an idea about what kind of stuff the candidate has been doing, but it certainly doesn't reveal any level of skill. I've flown with 50 hour private pilots working on their instrument that could track a VOR radial better than a guy who shoots approaches weekly using his dual-axis autopilot slaved up to his suite of Garmin GPS's.

In the end it's got nothing to do with hours. It's how individually we choose to approach this pursuit of aviation. Some people will spend the rest of their lives hungry for information, always trying to learn as much as they can comprehend and then looking for more still. Chances are if you're here, in this forum, reading this post, then this is you and that's something to be proud of.

Others learn only what they need to get it off the ground and then dump it back on the ground when no one is looking.

It's the responsibility of every pilot...peer to peer, student to CFI, CFI to student, pilot to weather briefer...to always question the information we receive and benchmark it for validity against what we already know, and to call into question anything we suspect to be false.

Let your skills speak for who you are as a pilot...the logbook is for the Feds.

In closing, I try to remind pilots I work with that just becuse your logbook reflects a recency of experience, don't let that stand between you and your better judgement. Six instrument approaches in six months doesn't mean you're ready for an ILS to minimums with the visibility being reported in FEET, not miles...

_________________
Inst: "So how far out so we make our initial call-up?"
Student: "10 miles"
Inst: "OK, let's make that call"
Student: "Airport Traffic, Cessna 172, 3 miles east..."


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 Post subject: Re: Logging Time
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:51 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 4:22 am
Posts: 84
flyforfun wrote:
I was reading a comment in the General Aviation Forum about the first time in a tail wheel aircraft. One of the posts from dcfly stated "I got some stick time in a Champ last year. The owner wasn't a CFI, so it wasn't loggable." From that statement I assume he is still a student.

It seems to me that dcfly could have logged his taildragger flight as 'Total Time' without having a CFI in the back seat.


I'm not a student now, but I was at the time. Even if I had been a pilot, wouldn't have logged it because it's worthless -- it's not countable as PIC time, and it's not instructional time toward anything. Everything I would need time for requires either that it be PIC or instruction.

Still -- it's in my logbook for the memory, just with zero time. There's another entry for the time I got stick time in a Waco. Zero hours logged, but there's still an entry with the tail number, airport, date, and a brief description.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:44 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:22 pm
Posts: 4
dcfly, Sorry for the jumping to conclusions about your ratings, but the CFI comment made me think about my wife who is a student.

(For Student Pilots out there, everyone is a student pilot regardless of what the FAA says!)

I guess this thread all started when my wife (a 130hr 500 to/ldg student... long story for another post) wanted to practice cross countries because she did not feel she was finding landmarks successfully. She obviously didn't need any time, but when I would sit in the right seat and she would be the sole manipulator of the controls on x-country flights, what would we do with the time? I didn't make the landings, so what was I to log? BUT since I was the private pilot up front only I could log the PIC. Her instructor told us that I should log the PIC time, and she should log 'total time'.

Yes the time is useless for a rating, and I built x-country time without manipulating the controls, but I did do a lot of piloting without holding the controls. Since it was my ultimate responsibility for safety, I did sit there and do the instruments scans, checkpoints, diligently scan for traffic, and keep up with the ATC so she did not make any (bad) mistakes.

It turned out to be a fun way to spend a Sunday afternoon together!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:26 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:19 pm
Posts: 104
Location: The Land of IMC, New England
flyforfun wrote:
It turned out to be a fun way to spend a Sunday afternoon together!


Amen, brother! Now to me, THAT is what it's all about.

_________________
Inst: "So how far out so we make our initial call-up?"
Student: "10 miles"
Inst: "OK, let's make that call"
Student: "Airport Traffic, Cessna 172, 3 miles east..."


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 Post subject: Logging PIC
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:24 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 9
Hi all,
I'm still a bit confused about this and StarvingCFI's post has me thinking my logbook is a little off.
StarvingCFI wrote:
Then there's always the possibility that the examiner for your next checkride looks at your 8710, notices the Total Time is greater than the sum of the "PIC" and "Dual Given" columns and starts asking questions. I wouldn't want to have to talk my way through that one...


From reading this, your either PIC or Receiving Instruction. So where does Solo fit in? If your the only Pilot in the airplane but you have a passenger are you solo or PIC? vs You are flying the airplane but your passenger is also a pilot.

I guess what I'm looking for is a definition of each column. I'm still working on my private and my logbook reads as follows.

116 NR T/O : 116 NR LDG : 54.9 SEL : 3.6 NIGHT : 3.9 SIMULATED INSTRUMENT (HOOD) : 17.2 CROSS COUNTRY : 11.7 SOLO : 43.2 DUAL RECEIVED : 0 PIC : 54.9 TOTAL

I figured that even though I was the only person in the airplane for my solo flights, I can't log PIC for an aircraft for which I'm not rated and I only become rated for SEL when I received my pilots certificate.

I then heard a CFI telling his student that after he solos the student can then log PIC and dual received for the flights they have together.

Any clarification on this would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Logging PIC
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:21 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 9:35 pm
Posts: 42
Paul_P wrote:
From reading this, your either PIC or Receiving Instruction. So where does Solo fit in? If your the only Pilot in the airplane but you have a passenger are you solo or PIC? vs You are flying the airplane but your passenger is also a pilot.


Solo means just that. Sole occupant of the airplne.

Quote:
I guess what I'm looking for is a definition of each column. I'm still working on my private and my logbook reads as follows.

116 NR T/O : 116 NR LDG : 54.9 SEL : 3.6 NIGHT : 3.9 SIMULATED INSTRUMENT (HOOD) : 17.2 CROSS COUNTRY : 11.7 SOLO : 43.2 DUAL RECEIVED : 0 PIC : 54.9 TOTAL


Well, your solo time is also PIC time. There has to be a Pilot In Command onboard at all times, correct? When the CFI is onboard with you, he is the PIC. When you are solo, YOU must be the PIC.

Quote:
I figured that even though I was the only person in the airplane for my solo flights, I can't log PIC for an aircraft for which I'm not rated and I only become rated for SEL when I received my pilots certificate.


Well, see above. You CAN log solo time as PIC.

Quote:
I then heard a CFI telling his student that after he solos the student can then log PIC and dual received for the flights they have together.


That CFI is wrong. For reasons I can't explain adequately right now. I am sure the FAR scholars can chime in on that one.

Quote:
Any clarification on this would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Paul


Hopefully that helps.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:34 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 9
Thanks for the quick reply Greg,

So, anywhere I put time in my solo column I'll copy that time to my PIC column also.

I guess I just don't understand the point of having a solo column. Like you said, being solo, your obviously the PIC. Why would anyone care weather your the only person in the airplane? If your not a passenger, and your not receiving instruction, your the PIC. If the person next to you has never even been in an airplane, for all purposes, you might as well be solo.

Thanks again,
Paul


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:27 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 9:35 pm
Posts: 42
Paul_P wrote:
Thanks for the quick reply Greg,

So, anywhere I put time in my solo column I'll copy that time to my PIC column also.


Not a bad idea.

Quote:
I guess I just don't understand the point of having a solo column. Like you said, being solo, your obviously the PIC. Why would anyone care weather your the only person in the airplane?


Well, it might seem kind of silly EXCEPT when you consider this: There are some commercial requirements that REQUIRE solo time. THEN it is a good thing to have a solo column. Reality is, after those requirements are met, and any other certificate that requires solo time, there is no need to log solo time. I don't anymore.

Quote:
If your not a passenger, and your not receiving instruction, your the PIC.


UNLESS you are in a situation where you are SIC. Such as safety pilot. But that is a can of worms best left for another thread at another time. :mrgreen:

Quote:
If the person next to you has never even been in an airplane, for all purposes, you might as well be solo.


Well, yes. But that person can hold charts, look up stuff, and otherwise be useful, even though they are not a pilot. The purpose of solo, in the FAA's eyes, is so you can demonstrate that you can do the tasks all by your lonesome. Solo means sole occupant. You just have to live with it. :mrgreen:

Quote:
Thanks again,
Paul


Any time. But this is easy for me. Anything harder and Tony will have to answer.:mrgreen::mrgreen:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 7:50 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:27 pm
Posts: 9
Thank you for helping me work through this. So just to recap.
Pre-Private
I will be logging Solo & PIC if I'm by myself and Dual Received if I'm being instructed.

When I have Private working on my Instrument
I will be logging PIC & Dual Received when with my instructor and PIC & Solo if I'm flying by myself or just PIC if I'm flying w/ friends

Working on complex, tailwheel, High performance & multi.
I revert back to just logging Dual Received when being instructed because I'm not rated for the aircraft yet.

Thanks,
Paul


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:30 am 
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Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 9:35 pm
Posts: 42
Paul_P wrote:
Thank you for helping me work through this. So just to recap.
Pre-Private
I will be logging Solo & PIC if I'm by myself and Dual Received if I'm being instructed.


Yes.

Quote:
When I have Private working on my Instrument
I will be logging PIC & Dual Received when with my instructor and PIC & Solo if I'm flying by myself or just PIC if I'm flying w/ friends


Yes.

Quote:
Working on complex, tailwheel, High performance & multi.
I revert back to just logging Dual Received when being instructed because I'm not rated for the aircraft yet.


Well, not exactly. In the case of Tailwheel, High Performance, and complex, you ARE rated for those airplanes. You are NOT ENDORSED for those airplanes. Big difference.

We are about to get into the dreaded ACTING vs. LOGGING PIC bugaboo. To be able to ACT as PIC, you need to be legal in all respects for the airplane you are flying. If that airplane requires an endorsement, you need the endorsement. You need the currency requirements. You need the current flight review. You need all of that stuff.

To LOG PIC, you don't need any of that stuff, as long as there is someone onboard who DOES meet all those requirements. All that is required is that you are sole manipulator of the controls of an airplane for which you are rated. Rated in this context does not necessarily mean endorsed.

The FAR reference is 61.51(e).

As far as Multi engine, sea plane, helicopter and the like, you are correct. You would log dual received from an authorized instructor. If you are flying with someone who is not an authorized instructor, you cannot log anything.


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