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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:52 am 
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Under § 61.51, a pilot can only log PIC time if he meets all the requirements of § 61.51(e)(1), including that the time be tume during which the pilot "Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges. . . ."

Under § 61.31, a pilot cannot "act" as PIC of a high-performance airplane until he/she has received and logged the required ground and flight training, and obtained the endorsement.

Can the pilot log as PIC time the training time spent flying the plane with an instructor, in advance of obtaining the endorsement?

It seems to me the answer is yes. Clearly, the pilot cannot log the time if the plane is one for which the pilot is not "rated" or does not "have privileges." But a high-performance plane requires only an endorsement, not a particular rating, so a private pilot is rated for the plane. Am I right or am I missing something?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:56 pm 
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dcfly wrote:
Can the pilot log as PIC time the training time spent flying the plane with an instructor, in advance of obtaining the endorsement?

It seems to me the answer is yes. Clearly, the pilot cannot log the time if the plane is one for which the pilot is not "rated" or does not "have privileges." But a high-performance plane requires only an endorsement, not a particular rating, so a private pilot is rated for the plane. Am I right or am I missing something?


you are right.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:58 am 
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This was discussed on the last logging thread as well, and the conclusion was the same - but... As you pointed out 61.51 says "has privileges". Without the required endorsement, DO you have "privileges"? Interesting.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:56 am 
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Indeed you are right...once you are a private pilot, you are PIC including the time spent training for other endorsements ie high/complex/tailwheel...
I think the term privileges would apply to a situation like, a multi-engine student, has the appropriate endorsement to go solo before being rated in a multi-engine plane. Rated or privileges, and so privilege is the endorsement.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:26 am 
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Nice interpretation, Anais, and one that makes very good sense to me. Thanks.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:00 am 
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Landis wrote:
This was discussed on the last logging thread as well, and the conclusion was the same - but... As you pointed out 61.51 says "has privileges". Without the required endorsement, DO you have "privileges"? Interesting.


The regulation says "rated OR has privileges", NOT both. One OR the other. BTW, endorsements are NOT ratings.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:11 am 
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anais wrote:
I think the term privileges would apply to a situation like, a multi-engine student, has the appropriate endorsement to go solo before being rated in a multi-engine plane. Rated or privileges, and so privilege is the endorsement.


You may be right, but I believe the "or privileges" part was added when Sport Pilot was introduced. They operate under slightly different rules where they have category/class privileges, not necessarily ratings. At least that is how I understand it.

BTW, I believe solo in a multi engine airplane, prior to that rating, would be covered under 61.51(e)(ii).


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:11 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:52 am 
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You are absolutely right, it could quite possible refer to that. I think what is most important is that we understand what is applicable to us and use a little common sense when we navigate through the regulations.


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